殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

版主: whoshepherd17

内容
作者
shepherd17
精英
帖子: 6442
注册时间: 2023-12-24
Has thanked: 994 time
Been thanked: 841 time

殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#1

#1 帖子 shepherd17 »

马尔克思与马斯克指向完全相反的方向 - 一个要终结资本主义,一个要将资本主义推至极致 - 但两者都描绘了一个后稀缺的丰裕未来:物质需求被轻松满足,劳动不再是社会的核心组织原则。路径不同,终点却有惊人的重叠。


🧭 核心对比:理念相反,终局相似

  • 卡尔·马克思:主张消灭生产资料的私人占有,认为技术发展最终会消除物质稀缺,进而实现无阶级社会。
  • 埃隆·马斯克:推动极端资本主义式的技术创新:AI、机器人、自动化等,他声称这些将带来极端丰裕,使金钱本身失去意义。

尽管理念对立,两者都设想:

  • 一个劳动不再是社会核心的世界
  • 技术带来近乎无限的物质与服务
  • 社会结构必须适应后稀缺条件

🔍 愿景的收敛点

1. 后稀缺丰裕

马克思预测先进生产力最终消除稀缺;马斯克则明确宣称 AI 和机器人将“满足所有人类需求”,让金钱变得无意义。

2. 自动化作为驱动力

马克思视机器为揭示资本主义矛盾的工具;马斯克视机器为解放者,使劳动需求消失。

3. 劳动市场的终结

  • 马克思:劳动不再是价值来源,资本主义因此崩解
  • 马斯克:自动化使工作消失,社会需要全民基本收入(UBI)

⚡ 愿景的分歧点

1. 生产资料所有权

  • 马克思:集体所有
  • 马斯克:高度集中的私人所有:SpaceX、Tesla、Neuralink 等

2. 权力结构

  • 马克思:阶级斗争终结剥削
  • 马斯克:权力转向掌控算法、数据与认知基础设施的人

3. 人类的实现方式

  • 马克思:通过非异化劳动与共同体生活实现自我
  • 马斯克:通过技术超越:星际文明、脑机接口、AI 伴侣

📊 比较表

维度马克思马斯克
生产资料集体所有私人高度集中
变革动力阶级斗争 + 技术AI、机器人、认知基础设施
劳动终结社会革命消灭劳动自动化使劳动过时
后稀缺预测其到来主动工程其到来
社会结果无阶级社会技术乌托邦(阶级结构不明)
风险官僚集中化企业对认知与现实的控制

🧠 更深的讽刺

马斯克的技术乌托邦式丰裕在结构上与马克思的终极愿景相似,但没有马克思式的政治转型。马斯克保留资本主义的所有权结构,却同时消解资本主义赖以运作的经济逻辑。


🧩 这意味着什么

如果两条路径都指向后稀缺:

  • 马克思认为资本主义无法存活这一转变
  • 马斯克认为资本主义将创造这一转变

两者对终点一致,但对“资本主义是工具还是障碍”意见完全相反。


Takeaway: Marx and Musk really do point in opposite directions—one toward abolishing capitalism, the other toward maximizing it—yet both imagine a future of post‑scarcity abundance where material needs are effortlessly met. Their routes diverge radically, but the horizon they gesture toward overlaps in surprising ways. Psychology Today


🧭 Core contrast: Opposite philosophies, convergent end-state

  • Karl Marx sought to eliminate private ownership of the means of production, predicting that technological development would eventually make scarcity obsolete and enable a classless society.
  • Elon Musk pushes hyper-capitalist innovation—AI, robotics, automation—arguing these will produce such extreme abundance that money itself becomes irrelevant. Psychology Today

Despite opposite ideologies, both imagine:

  • A world where labor is no longer the central organizing principle.
  • Technology producing near-infinite goods and services.
  • Social structures needing to adapt to post-scarcity conditions.

🔍 How their visions converge

1. Post-scarcity abundance

Marx predicted that advanced productive forces would eventually make material scarcity disappear. Musk explicitly claims AI and robots will “saturate all human needs” and make money obsolete. Psychology Today

2. Automation as the driver

Marx saw machines as tools that expose contradictions of capitalism; Musk sees them as liberators that eliminate human labor requirements.

3. End of traditional labor markets

Marx: capitalism collapses when labor is no longer the source of value.
Musk: automation creates so much productivity that jobs disappear and UBI becomes necessary. Psychology Today


⚡ How their visions diverge

1. Ownership of the means of production

  • Marx: collective ownership.
  • Musk: extreme concentration of ownership—SpaceX, Tesla, Neuralink—often built with massive public financing that is later privatized. besthub.dev

2. Power dynamics

Marx: class struggle ends when exploitation ends.
Musk: power shifts to those who control algorithms, data, and cognitive infrastructure, not factories. ynetnews.com

3. Human flourishing

Marx: fulfillment through non-alienated labor and communal life.
Musk: fulfillment through technological transcendence—interplanetary life, brain–machine interfaces, AI companions.


📊 Comparison Table

VisionKarl MarxElon Musk
Means of productionCollective ownershipPrivate, highly concentrated ownership
Driver of changeClass struggle + technologyAI, robotics, cognitive infrastructure
End of laborLabor abolished through social revolutionLabor obsolete due to automation
Post-scarcityPredicts itActively engineers it
Social outcomeClassless societyTechno-utopia with unclear class structure
RisksBureaucratic centralizationCorporate control over cognition & reality

🧠 The deeper irony

Musk’s techno-utopian abundance mirrors Marx’s end-state, but without Marx’s political transformation. Musk keeps capitalist ownership intact while dissolving the economic logic that capitalism depends on. As Psychology Today notes, Musk’s vision “ironically mirrors Karl Marx’s socialist dream” of absolute abundance. Psychology Today


🧩 What this suggests

If both paths lead to post-scarcity:

  • Marx predicts capitalism cannot survive that transition.
  • Musk predicts capitalism will create that transition.

They agree on the destination but disagree on whether capitalism is the vehicle or the obstacle.

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

头像
resso
栋梁
帖子: 23747
注册时间: 2023-12-24
Has thanked: 130 time
Been thanked: 411 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#2

#2 帖子 resso »

所有大忽悠都会描绘一个共产主义社会。
太平天国
康有为也不例外

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

shepherd17
精英
帖子: 6442
注册时间: 2023-12-24
Has thanked: 994 time
Been thanked: 841 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#3

#3 帖子 shepherd17 »

resso 写了: 今天, 09:24

所有大忽悠都会描绘一个共产主义社会。
太平天国
康有为也不例外

那你觉得未来是啥样子的?

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

头像
resso
栋梁
帖子: 23747
注册时间: 2023-12-24
Has thanked: 130 time
Been thanked: 411 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#4

#4 帖子 resso »

shepherd17 写了: 今天, 09:26
resso 写了: 今天, 09:24

所有大忽悠都会描绘一个共产主义社会。
太平天国
康有为也不例外

那你觉得未来是啥样子的?

我是活在当下的人
未知生,焉知死

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

Like (1)
shepherd17
头像
Lilyamao
栋梁
帖子: 14764
注册时间: 2023-12-24
Has thanked: 171 time
Been thanked: 802 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#5

#5 帖子 Lilyamao »

马斯克的DOGE砍了美国的USAID,一年40多billion 吧

当然老川送40 billion 给阿根廷,花几百billion打伊朗,马斯克个舔狗屁都不敢放

记者说砍掉USAID的资助,非洲多死了很多人,因为粮食医疗是必须

马斯克说不可能,非洲多死了0人、还说,他认为砍掉USAID , 比尔盖茨和贝索斯前妻可以补上钱

这个人渣对弱势人类同情心是零

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

头像
小河清流
中坚
帖子: 1967
注册时间: 2023-12-21
Has thanked: 20 time
Been thanked: 63 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#6

#6 帖子 小河清流 »

Lilyamao 写了: 今天, 10:20

马斯克的DOGE砍了美国的USAID,一年40多billion 吧

当然老川送40 billion 给阿根廷,花几百billion打伊朗,马斯克个舔狗屁都不敢放

记者说砍掉USAID的资助,非洲多死了很多人,因为粮食医疗是必须

马斯克说不可能,非洲多死了0人、还说,他认为砍掉USAID , 比尔盖茨和贝索斯前妻可以补上钱

这个人渣对弱势人类同情心是零

不给40 billion, 阿根廷也要死很多人, 而且是一次性的,非洲得救济必须永久进行。 这就叫救急不救穷。 老川行为是相对合理的。

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

头像
小河清流
中坚
帖子: 1967
注册时间: 2023-12-21
Has thanked: 20 time
Been thanked: 63 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#7

#7 帖子 小河清流 »

shepherd17 写了: 今天, 09:21

马尔克思与马斯克指向完全相反的方向 - 一个要终结资本主义,一个要将资本主义推至极致 - 但两者都描绘了一个后稀缺的丰裕未来:物质需求被轻松满足,劳动不再是社会的核心组织原则。路径不同,终点却有惊人的重叠。


🧭 核心对比:理念相反,终局相似

  • 卡尔·马克思:主张消灭生产资料的私人占有,认为技术发展最终会消除物质稀缺,进而实现无阶级社会。
  • 埃隆·马斯克:推动极端资本主义式的技术创新:AI、机器人、自动化等,他声称这些将带来极端丰裕,使金钱本身失去意义。

尽管理念对立,两者都设想:

  • 一个劳动不再是社会核心的世界
  • 技术带来近乎无限的物质与服务
  • 社会结构必须适应后稀缺条件

🔍 愿景的收敛点

1. 后稀缺丰裕

马克思预测先进生产力最终消除稀缺;马斯克则明确宣称 AI 和机器人将“满足所有人类需求”,让金钱变得无意义。

2. 自动化作为驱动力

马克思视机器为揭示资本主义矛盾的工具;马斯克视机器为解放者,使劳动需求消失。

3. 劳动市场的终结

  • 马克思:劳动不再是价值来源,资本主义因此崩解
  • 马斯克:自动化使工作消失,社会需要全民基本收入(UBI)

⚡ 愿景的分歧点

1. 生产资料所有权

  • 马克思:集体所有
  • 马斯克:高度集中的私人所有:SpaceX、Tesla、Neuralink 等

2. 权力结构

  • 马克思:阶级斗争终结剥削
  • 马斯克:权力转向掌控算法、数据与认知基础设施的人

3. 人类的实现方式

  • 马克思:通过非异化劳动与共同体生活实现自我
  • 马斯克:通过技术超越:星际文明、脑机接口、AI 伴侣

📊 比较表

维度马克思马斯克
生产资料集体所有私人高度集中
变革动力阶级斗争 + 技术AI、机器人、认知基础设施
劳动终结社会革命消灭劳动自动化使劳动过时
后稀缺预测其到来主动工程其到来
社会结果无阶级社会技术乌托邦(阶级结构不明)
风险官僚集中化企业对认知与现实的控制

🧠 更深的讽刺

马斯克的技术乌托邦式丰裕在结构上与马克思的终极愿景相似,但没有马克思式的政治转型。马斯克保留资本主义的所有权结构,却同时消解资本主义赖以运作的经济逻辑。


🧩 这意味着什么

如果两条路径都指向后稀缺:

  • 马克思认为资本主义无法存活这一转变
  • 马斯克认为资本主义将创造这一转变

两者对终点一致,但对“资本主义是工具还是障碍”意见完全相反。


Takeaway: Marx and Musk really do point in opposite directions—one toward abolishing capitalism, the other toward maximizing it—yet both imagine a future of post‑scarcity abundance where material needs are effortlessly met. Their routes diverge radically, but the horizon they gesture toward overlaps in surprising ways. Psychology Today


🧭 Core contrast: Opposite philosophies, convergent end-state

  • Karl Marx sought to eliminate private ownership of the means of production, predicting that technological development would eventually make scarcity obsolete and enable a classless society.
  • Elon Musk pushes hyper-capitalist innovation—AI, robotics, automation—arguing these will produce such extreme abundance that money itself becomes irrelevant. Psychology Today

Despite opposite ideologies, both imagine:

  • A world where labor is no longer the central organizing principle.
  • Technology producing near-infinite goods and services.
  • Social structures needing to adapt to post-scarcity conditions.

🔍 How their visions converge

1. Post-scarcity abundance

Marx predicted that advanced productive forces would eventually make material scarcity disappear. Musk explicitly claims AI and robots will “saturate all human needs” and make money obsolete. Psychology Today

2. Automation as the driver

Marx saw machines as tools that expose contradictions of capitalism; Musk sees them as liberators that eliminate human labor requirements.

3. End of traditional labor markets

Marx: capitalism collapses when labor is no longer the source of value.
Musk: automation creates so much productivity that jobs disappear and UBI becomes necessary. Psychology Today


⚡ How their visions diverge

1. Ownership of the means of production

  • Marx: collective ownership.
  • Musk: extreme concentration of ownership—SpaceX, Tesla, Neuralink—often built with massive public financing that is later privatized. besthub.dev

2. Power dynamics

Marx: class struggle ends when exploitation ends.
Musk: power shifts to those who control algorithms, data, and cognitive infrastructure, not factories. ynetnews.com

3. Human flourishing

Marx: fulfillment through non-alienated labor and communal life.
Musk: fulfillment through technological transcendence—interplanetary life, brain–machine interfaces, AI companions.


📊 Comparison Table

VisionKarl MarxElon Musk
Means of productionCollective ownershipPrivate, highly concentrated ownership
Driver of changeClass struggle + technologyAI, robotics, cognitive infrastructure
End of laborLabor abolished through social revolutionLabor obsolete due to automation
Post-scarcityPredicts itActively engineers it
Social outcomeClassless societyTechno-utopia with unclear class structure
RisksBureaucratic centralizationCorporate control over cognition & reality

🧠 The deeper irony

Musk’s techno-utopian abundance mirrors Marx’s end-state, but without Marx’s political transformation. Musk keeps capitalist ownership intact while dissolving the economic logic that capitalism depends on. As Psychology Today notes, Musk’s vision “ironically mirrors Karl Marx’s socialist dream” of absolute abundance. Psychology Today


🧩 What this suggests

If both paths lead to post-scarcity:

  • Marx predicts capitalism cannot survive that transition.
  • Musk predicts capitalism will create that transition.

They agree on the destination but disagree on whether capitalism is the vehicle or the obstacle.

马克思那套劳动者创造理论完全是行不通的片面的,因为完全不符合人性,也不符合实际。 马克思吸引力是吹吹牛就拯救全人类,适合脑残小资装X。
马斯克这个是可以实现的, 因为把人从生产里去除了。

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

Like (1)
shepherd17
头像
resso
栋梁
帖子: 23747
注册时间: 2023-12-24
Has thanked: 130 time
Been thanked: 411 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#8

#8 帖子 resso »

小河清流 写了: 今天, 10:34
Lilyamao 写了: 今天, 10:20

马斯克的DOGE砍了美国的USAID,一年40多billion 吧

当然老川送40 billion 给阿根廷,花几百billion打伊朗,马斯克个舔狗屁都不敢放

记者说砍掉USAID的资助,非洲多死了很多人,因为粮食医疗是必须

马斯克说不可能,非洲多死了0人、还说,他认为砍掉USAID , 比尔盖茨和贝索斯前妻可以补上钱

这个人渣对弱势人类同情心是零

不给40 billion, 阿根廷也要死很多人, 而且是一次性的,非洲得救济必须永久进行。 这就叫救急不救穷。 老川行为是相对合理的。

阿根廷是穷国不是急国,你想啥呢

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

头像
小河清流
中坚
帖子: 1967
注册时间: 2023-12-21
Has thanked: 20 time
Been thanked: 63 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#9

#9 帖子 小河清流 »

resso 写了: 今天, 11:02
小河清流 写了: 今天, 10:34

不给40 billion, 阿根廷也要死很多人, 而且是一次性的,非洲得救济必须永久进行。 这就叫救急不救穷。 老川行为是相对合理的。

阿根廷是穷国不是急国,你想啥呢

穷国就没急事? 再说什么是急国?怎么定义。

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

头像
resso
栋梁
帖子: 23747
注册时间: 2023-12-24
Has thanked: 130 time
Been thanked: 411 time

Re: 殊途同归:马克思与马斯克

#10

#10 帖子 resso »

小河清流 写了: 今天, 11:37
resso 写了: 今天, 11:02

阿根廷是穷国不是急国,你想啥呢

穷国就没急事? 再说什么是急国?怎么定义。

那么请给阿根廷和非洲同等待遇

 

POSTREACT(ions) SUMMARY

回复